Hope In Darkness – Ep. 12 – Full Transcript

Full Transcript – Ep. 12: Homecoming

The Holts arrive on US soil. Josh and Thamy meet the president and make the rounds on morning television. Adjusting to life on the outside requires more faith and hope than expected. 

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Ep. 12: Homecoming

HOST BECKY BRUCE:

Hope in Darkness is a podcast that addresses sensitive topics including torture, abuse, and human rights violations. Listener discretion is advised.

About a month before the uprising at El Helicoide, Illinois Senator Dick Durbin got a chance to go to Venezuela to plead for Josh and Thamy’s release. That came because of an invite from Venezuela’s own caped crusader, “Dracula,” or Governor Rafael Lacava — the leader known for his makeshift batmobile night raids on black market activity.

SEN. DICK DURBIN ARCHIVAL:

Mr. President, last week I spent four days in Venezuela. I’d never been there before.

BECKY:

This is Durbin’s senate floor address after he came back home.

SEN. DURBIN ARCHIVAL:

No doubt many are aware that Venezuela’s been suffering devastating economic and democratic backsliding. But what I found was a country that is on the edge of collapse.

BECKY:

Durbin hoped to secure the Holts’ freedom. But he was so horrified by what he saw, his report back to the Senate included some language the Venezuelan government didn’t like.

SEN. DURBIN ARCHIVAL:

Inflation is rampant, expected to reach 13,000% this year, leading to what some call a race for survival. Imagine only one out of three people in Venezuela eat three meals a day. And what I found also particularly cruel was the government’s supposed effort to help with hunger. The provision of a monthly food basket was linked to having the right political identification card. Business leaders told me that they’re being vilified by the government, forced to sell products below cost, and out of markets so the government can be the exclusive seller of imported goods. Venezuela is at war with itself.

BECKY:

It was minute 13 of his 17 minute floor speech before he even mentioned the Holts.

SEN. DURBIN ARCHIVAL:

Keeping Josh Holt as a political hostage will just isolate the Maduro regime even more.

BECKY:

Senate staffer Caleb McCarry, who was working behind the scenes on Josh and Thamy’s case, was horrified. When Josh and I spoke to him two years later, McCarry told us he knew President Nicolas Maduro was sensitive to overseas perceptions of his country.

CALEB MCCARRY:

Which frankly blew the visit to smithereens, embarrassed Lacava, and put any effort to get you out on ice. I was worried we were completely burned to a crisp.

BECKY:

Then came the prison uprising.

MCCARRY:

I was worried to death about you Josh. I frankly was worried you were going to be killed.

BECKY:

The riot ended but McCarry was still worried. And then the phone rang.

MCCARRY:

I got a call from Lacava. And the timing of this was one week after Maduro had staged his re-election.

BECKY:

Lacava, “Dracula,” had an offer. If McCarry could get his boss, Senator Bob Corker, to go to Venezuela in person…

MCCARRY:

He said, “You know, I think the President’s prepared to release Joshua Holt.”

BECKY:

I’m Becky Bruce, and this is Hope in Darkness, Episode 12: “Homecoming.”

NEWS ARCHIVAL:

Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker visited Venezuela just yesterday.

JOSH ARCHIVAL:

Just so grateful for what you guys have done and for thinking about me and caring about me, just a normal person.

LAURIE HOLT (JOSH’S MOM ARCHIVAL):

I love you. I’m so glad your home. I’m so glad your home.

BECKY:

More after this.

[BREAK]

BECKY:

Caleb McCarry had a couple of different reasons to be skeptical that Nicolas Maduro would actually release Josh and Thamy. Remember, he originally met and got to know the future Venezuelan president back in 2002 over beers in Boston in the aftermath of a failed coup to remove Hugo Chavez. He had a unique connection to Maduro, and the invitation from Lacava was the most promising development yet toward the Holts’ release. But McCarry had no guarantee that Lacava was right. And there were a number of high-ranking US officials and politicians who would not want to be seen as shaking hands with Maduro, especially after his “re-election.” It could be seen they thought as the US legitimizing Maduro’s presidency. Still, Senator Corker agreed to give it a shot.

MCCARRY:

Because of the timing of this right after that re-election bid, the negative reaction that was likely to come from people who have deep concerns about the nature of the Venezuelan government, President Maduro, I wasn’t entirely sure we were going to get on that plane. I didn’t tell even Senator Hatch’s office if we were going until I was on the plane in Washington, with the doors shut.

BECKY:

Back at El Helicoide, Josh and Thamy were living together in an office. After the events of the riot 10 days earlier, they’d been removed from the general prison population. In their new home, they started hearing rumors that they would soon be released.

JOSH:

It started coming out in the news, and we didn’t really believe it. It was just like, ahh-okay, whatever.

VENEZUELA ARCHIVAL:

[fades in]

BECKY:

A government official took to state television in Venezuela to say the Holts were going home.

AUDIO ARCHIVAL:

…apareció una solicitud por parte de estos senadores para…la liberación para el señor Joshua Holt, ciudadano norteamericano y su esposa…[fades down]

JOSH:

So, I remember talking to Thamy about it. I was like, “Well that’d be cool if it happened.” And then she talked to Wilmer.

BECKY:

Wilmer Ruperti is the shipping tycoon who helped fund their defense.

JOSH:

Wilmer called us and said, “Listen guys, it’s gonna happen. Like it’s gonna happen.” We were kind of like, “Wilmer, we’ve talked to you about this before. We don’t really believe it.” He goes, “Listen, it might not be 100% right now, but the odds are really good.”

BECKY:

They dared once again to hope, especially when their guards came and told them to get cleaned up in order to meet with people in charge of El Helicoide.

JOSH:

And so, we started getting excited. We started talking to the police officers that were there guarding us, and they were excited for us. Like the people that were guarding us, honestly, were really good friends. Like, they’re really good people. And when they pulled us out of that room, midnight, one o’clock in the morning to go and talk to the two wardens, that was huge.

THAMY HOLT:

Y el director del SEBIN…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

The director of SEBIN, the general, the most important told us, “How many times have you come to my office to be told you’re going home? Well, it’s the first time — then it’s true. You’re going to go, to go home.”

JOSH:

And we just kind of had a conversation of you know, this is what to expect. I’m sorry that this all happened to you. You know, we really honestly wish you the best.

BECKY:

So what happened? It’s hard to say for sure exactly. We know Caleb McCarry landed in Caracas with his boss Sen. Bob Corker. We also know Corker and McCarry met with the Venezuelan President and that McCarry served as a translator.

MCCARRY:

President Maduro told Senator Corker that he was prepared to release you. Sen. Corker said, “Thank you. We’d also appreciate it if Josh’s wife Thamy and her daughter could be released as well.”

BECKY:

Eventually, they came to an agreement. To this day, even McCarry can’t say for sure what made Maduro let Josh and Thamy go. He insists there was no exchange. Doing so would have angered the same people who disapproved of Corker’s trip to Caracas. That same hardline philosophy is one reason it’s hard for the US to free Americans held by hostile foreign governments.

MCCARRY:

Maduro did this for whatever reasons he did it, but it in part he did it for me, because of our friendship. And I’m grateful to him forever for that. I know it’s hard to believe, and people don’t believe it and then you know they are even mad at me about it, but these people are my friends. And I had nothing to offer him. I couldn’t offer him anything. All I could do is try to convince him that it was the best thing to let you go home.That’s the story.

BECKY:

Several hours after their midnight meeting with the warden, Josh and Thamy prepared to leave El Helicoide. They didn’t accumulate much during their time in prison, but what they had they whittled down to fit into two backpacks. To Josh’s surprise, the person who came to set them free was Gustavo González López, Venezuela’s Minister of Interior Justice and Peace. That’s the same man who just under two years before, paraded photos and video of Josh and Thamy on state television, and implied they were spies.

LÓPEZ ARCHIVAL:

[fades in]…de nacionalidad norteamericana, identificado como Joshua Anthony Holt, quién tenía ocultas armas…[fades down]

JOSH:

González López came into us, shook my hand again. I met with him a couple times before that. And so now we were on a first name basis type of thing and he was excited for us. He brought this bag, a Venezuelan bag. He brought his Venezuelan flag from off his office, gave it to us and gave us a bunch of other stuff, some shirts from the Olympians, just a bunch of stuff. And he just said, “You know, I really wish you well and I’m sorry that you had to go through this.”

BECKY:

They got into a car with González López and headed to the airport. They were headed not to Utah, but to Washington DC, where President Trump wanted to meet them in the oval office.

JOSH:

And it was so crazy that we actually pulled up to the gate where Nicolas Maduro would pull up to to get into his personal hangar.

BECKY:

There, Josh and Thamy met up with Sen. Corker and McCarry, as well as governor Lacava.

MCCARRY:

I didn’t know whether or not you were actually going to be released. I thought you were going to be, but I didn’t know until you stepped out of that van, and you know, Sen. Corker greeted you, and I hugged you. That was a second time I hugged you. The first time was in February, and do you remember what you whispered in my ear, which was, “get me out of here.” And so, it was a good book end.

BECKY:

But one large shadow clouded the release.

THAMY:

Yo no sabía si …[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

I didn’t know if I was going to reunite with Marian.

MCCARRY:

One of the biggest concerns was about Thamy’s daughter and making sure her father was okay with her leaving the country.

BECKY:

Thamy’s older daughter, Marian, had been living with her dad for most of the imprisonment.

MCCARRY:

You know, and so the embassy was not sure they weren’t going to be able to do that.

THAMY:

Yo no me iba a montarme en el avión…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

I wasn’t going to get on the plane if I had to leave Marian in Venezuela, but I didn’t have the option. Senator Bob Corker told me that if I didn’t get on the plane, they couldn’t help me back in the US.

BECKY:

As they waited to board, Thamy breathed a sigh of relief. Marian’s father drove up with the young girl.

THAMY:

Ellos llegaron como diez minutos después de que llegué…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

They arrived about ten minutes after me. So we were waiting for him. We were also waiting for my grandma. So I could say goodbye to her.

THAMY:

Me despedí de mi abuela, de mi primo que eran los únicos que estaban allí…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

I said goodbye to her and my cousin who were the only ones who were there. And my mom and Marian’s dad.

BECKY:

Thamy found herself comforting her daughter.

THAMY:

Yo estaba feliz de estar con mi hija, ella estaba llorando muchísimo…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

I was happy to see my daughter. She was crying a lot. She’s very attached to her dad.

THAMY:

Entonces ella iba llorando conmigo en el avión…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

She was crying with me on the plane.

THAMY:

Ella tenía sus manitas así pegada…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

She had her little hands on the window and saying daddy and things like that. That was so painful for me.

THAMY:

Si, era tan dolorosa para mi, pero yo decía, Marí estás conmigo. Estás bien. Estaba feliz de tenerla conmigo, pero me sentía tan mal porque sentía que le estaba quitando su papa.

TRANSLATION:

But I said, “Marian you’re with me. You’re okay.” I was happy to have her with me, but I felt so bad because I was taking away her dad.

BECKY:

She also had to process her own goodbyes, the finality of it. She gained her freedom but was leaving behind her home and her family.

THAMY:

Yo nunca podía ir a mi apartamento…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

I never could go to my apartment. I never could see my friends. I couldn’t celebrate my freedom in Venezuela. I just got on the plane, said goodbye to my family, and started a new life here. It was like I was a doll. From here we move you there and ready, there you go.

THAMY:

[fades in]…de aquí te movemos para allá y listo, vete. Yo sabía que el momento que…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

I knew the moment I married Josh that some time I would move to this country, but that was a process and I’d have time to prepare and things like that. But no, I just got on a plane. Here you are. You live here.

THAMY:

Y desde este momento, desde el 26 de mayo, no he visto mi mama…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

And from that moment, from the 26th of May, I haven’t seen my mom. I haven’t seen my grandma. I haven’t seen my brother. It’s been five years since I’ve seen my sister because she went to Ecuador.

THAMY:

[fades in]…por todo lo que estaba pasando.

JOSH:

And we get in the plane. We get our bags taken care of. We take our picture right outside the door, and then everyone just starts filing in. The plane goes and starts to take off. And then out of nowhere, it just starts slowing down.

BECKY:

Josh felt like his heart stopped. Maybe they wouldn’t get to go after all.

JOSH:

I was freaking out. In my mind, I’m thinking, “Oh, no. President Maduro changed his mind or someone else got in there and changed someone else’s mind. Who knows what happened? But they’re sending us back.” Like, we were that close. That close. My heart sunk. It was below…it was stomping on the ground. It wasn’t even in my stomach. It was below my stomach. And as it’s pulling off the runway. The captain came on and said, “Sorry folks, we just forgot to calibrate some of our equipment. So, we’ll go ahead and calibrate that real quick. And we’ll pull back around and go off again.”

BECKY:

Everyone started to breathe again.

JOSH:

You know, halfway through the flight, I went in the bathroom. Washed my face. Was looking at myself in the mirror just thinking, “Is this real? Am I really here?” I went and sat down on my seat and looking out the window just breathing and thinking of the past two years and then all sudden hearing the pilot go over the intercom saying, “Ladies and gentlemen, we’re now in the United States airspace.” And just thinking, “Wow!” Look, I have chills. I literally have chills right now. Goosebumps going down my arms. I remember how excited I was, knowing that finally I was going home.

BREAK

BECKY:

Back in Utah, Laurie Holt’s phone started to blow up.

Cell phone notifications jolted Laurie and Jason Holt awake in the middle of a quiet May night.

JASON HOLT (JOSH’S DAD):

The bad part is, there had been three or four times when we’ve been told he’s getting out, get ready. And so, this was at least the third time, and we’re like, “Uh huh.”

BECKY:

Josh’s dad, Jason.

JASON:

We started getting calls from news stations all over South America, Florida, here. So, we knew something was going on. We talked with Sen. Hatch’s office. And they said, “You know, get on a plane.” It was about four o’clock in the morning, three o’clock in the morning, and we had to get a flight.

BECKY:

They snatched up the last two tickets on a flight to DC. ABC’s Meredith McGraw reported on the developments after President Trump announced the release on his Twitter account.

ABC ARCHIVAL:

Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker visited Venezuela just yesterday ahead of this announcement. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Republican Senator from Utah, said. He also has been working hard on Holt’s release and thanked Corker in a statement, saying that he’s worked with ambassadors from all over the world and a network of contacts in Venezuela and even President Maduro himself in order to make this release happen.

BECKY:

On the ground in Washington, Jason and Laurie found themselves waiting in one room while President Trump’s personal physician checked out the Holts in another.

MCCARRY:

For me, the best moment of this entire thing was when you were getting your medical exams, I walked in the next room. And your mom gave me the biggest hug, and I said, “Your son’s in the next room, ma’am. You’re gonna see him in just a few minutes.” That was far…meant far more to me than going to the Oval Office.

BECKY:

Caleb McCarry will tell you that Laurie Holt’s intense determination to get her son home and refusal to give up was the driving force behind his freedom.

MCCARRY:

Your mother loved you so much and cared about you so profoundly, she did everything she could, left no stone unturned. I’m so glad you got home. [gets emotional] I’m so glad you got home to see your mom.

BECKY:

But that undercuts McCarry’s own role in the story and how his history with Nicolas Maduro was the catalyst for the Holts’ release. Without their friendship, it’s not clear when or if Josh and Thamy would have gotten out of El Helicoide.

MCCARRY:

You know, people were really mad at me, you know. I lost my job.

BECKY:

Not long after, McCarry was forced out of his Senate Foreign Relations Committee role. Some high-ranking members of Congress didn’t like the optics of McCarry taking a sitting senator to negotiate with a man they see as the illegitimate leader of a failing state.

MCCARRY:

Someone asked me, said if you knew everything you know now would you do it again? I said, “100% chance.”

JOSH TO MCCARRY:

Just like I said, 1000 times, there’s no way I could ever thank you enough for what you’ve done for me, for my family. Thanks to you, thanks for the effort that you put in.

MCCARRY:

Yeah. It’s my pleasure to do it for you, for your family, for your mother.

BECKY:

Jason and Laurie waited alongside Sen. Hatch for about 30 minutes before they could see their son. And then the door opened.

JASON:

That’s the first time that we saw him, that last little three minutes.

BECKY:

Sen. Hatch tweeted out this video of the reunion.

JOSH:

[emotional] And she just ran up to me and just gave me the biggest hug I’ve ever received from my mom. She just cried. She just cried on my shoulder. She says, “You’re here. I have you in my arms. Never letting you go ever again.” I was so happy. I was so happy just to be there. And then she let me go and went and grabbed Thamy. And then I went and hugged my dad and he just said, “I love you, bud.”

JASON:

And then they took us all. They split us. They wouldn’t even let us ride together with him in the caravan back to the White House. They had to be in their own caravan.

BECKY:

Someone loaned Josh a suit, and they went to the Oval Office, where he got to see his parents again and meet the president.

JOSH:

From that point on, it’s honestly just a blur. Everything happened so fast. President Trump came in with the Secret Service…he basically shook my hand for a second. Didn’t even talk to me, just shook my hand. And then he said, “Let them in.” And that was the craziest thing I think I’ve ever seen in my life, the way those…the way the media just rushed into that Oval Office.

AUDIO ARCHIVAL:

[President Trump] This is a great honor tonight it is very special.

JOSH:

And the whole time all you could hear is [Josh makes camera shutter noises].

BECKY:

The President spoke with Josh adding a little here and there, for just over ten minutes.

JOSH ARCHIVAL:

Not really the great vacation that I was looking for, but we’re still together, starting off a marriage rough, but now we’re going to be together. And I’m just so grateful.

BECKY:

After the White House, Josh, Thamy and Marian went to Walter Reed National Military Medical Center to start addressing some of the unresolved health issues from nearly two years at El Helicoide. After prison, it felt more like a hotel stay than a hospital.

JOSH:

I had taken the longest shower that I had ever taken in my entire life then. I used hot, hot, hot water. I washed myself, probably four or five times. That felt amazing to have that water just run over my body just warm water, not cold water.

BECKY:

They discovered Thamy had severe bursitis, finally explaining the shoulder pain that kept her up at night in prison. All three of them had major dental issues that needed to be addressed. And they went through a debriefing process. Finally, Thamy, Marian, and Josh headed to the airport with Laurie and Jason to go to Utah.

JOSH:

Here I am with my family just walking through the airport like an average Joe. It was just-it was just an adjustment. I guess you would say that it’s hard to process everything.

BECKY:

Josh’s sisters Katie and Jenna, and brother Derek got about five hours warning that the family was on the way. They went to work decorating the main drag leading from I-15 to the city of Riverton with black and lime green balloons, Josh’s favorite colors. They tied bright green ribbons around tree trunks on the Holts’ street. Derek told us the family rallied support from the community to pack Salt Lake City’s airport. Members of the media joined the crowd outside the baggage claim.

DEREK (JOSH’S BROTHER):

And it is chaos. There are people everywhere. There’s reporters everywhere. Yeah, it was just crazy, and it was just loud. And they started coming down.

JOSH:

To tell you the truth, I can’t remember going from my seat to the crowd. I just remember walking up to the escalator and then boom, there are  all of these people, and they’re all screaming, singing the national anthem.

BECKY:

Nathy, Marian’s younger sister, had been living with Laurie and Jason for several months. She had no idea she would soon see her sister and mother again.

JOSH:

Just to see the Nathalia’s face, she’s thinking that it’s Grandpa’s birthday. And that all these people are here to celebrate Grandpa’s birthday. That’s what she thought. And so, when she sees her mom and sister coming down the escalator and see how she lost it, and the way they hugged and the reunion was just amazing. It’s honestly, I’m at a loss of words. I can’t explain the way it felt.

THAMY:

Sentía que tenía todo completo aunque mi corazón estaba un poco…[fades down]

TRANSLATION:

I felt like everything was complete even though my heart was a little torn for having left my family. This is something I have to contend with and will for many years, but I have to mentalize that now I live here. My home is now here.

THAMY:

Mi hogar ahora está aquí.

BECKY:

Everyone piled into the limo for the ride to Riverton, where Josh’s neighbors were ready and waiting to celebrate. Hundreds of people lined the streets holding signs and waving.

JOSH ARCHIVAL:

We wanted to thank all the people that have supported us. You know, the whole time we were over there. It was hard but we definitely felt the help of the support of the people here, of the prayers. We want to say thank you to all the many prayers that were given in our behalf. We wanted to thank Carlos. Sen. Hatch was very, very helpful. He was always there for us, always worrying about us. And the people that went to Venezuela to finally get our freedom. Mr. McCarry. They’re great, great people. And so thank you all very much. We don’t want to take any questions right now.

DEREK:

Josh stayed and shook every single person’s hand and thanked them. Which a lot of people, what he just went through, wouldn’t have done that. I don’t think. They’d had been like, “Sorry, we’ll do a meet and greet later.” But he sat there and let every single person come by and talk to him.

BECKY:

In a different story, this is where we’d fade to black and roll the credits. But coming home was the start of another journey for the Holts. In October, they held their second wedding, two years later than they originally planned. Then, in December, family gathered at Laurie and Jason’s house on Christmas morning.

JOSH ARCHIVAL:

Now don’t cut the box. You gotta open the box, sorry.

BECKY:

Thamy shot video on her phone as Laurie opened a present from her daughter-in-law. Jason couldn’t see what his wife was holding yet. And she was too overcome to speak. Thamy had framed and wrapped an ultrasound printout. She and Josh were expecting.

JOSH:

We just had Christmas. We just told her about it. And she was so excited. So excited.

JASON:

Laurie was so excited to be the grandma.

JOSH:

But my wife…her first trimester was really, really hard. And I remember one day she bled a lot, and so I called my mom, told my mom what happened. I told her that we were going to see the doctor. She said, “Well, I’m coming then. I can’t work.” That’s just my mom. She had to be there. And she walked in and they saw the baby, and they saw that everything was fine. And we left and that was actually the last time that I saw my mom. And I didn’t even give her a hug goodbye that day, because we were planning on just seeing her a couple days later for Nathalia’s birthday party.

DEREK:

Katie and I were going out that night. I just remember Mom saying, “Love you guys.” And “Alright, love you, Mom. Bye.” We left, and I remember Katie and I, she was saying, “Didn’t Mom look really good tonight?” I’m like, “Yeah, she was like…glowing.”

JOSH:

My mom at this point was the happiest that she’s ever been in her life.

BECKY:

Laurie didn’t get to meet the baby. One Sunday morning, in February 2019, Jason couldn’t wake her up for church.

JOSH:

Sadly, she passed away from an enlarged heart. And it was, man…it was the hardest thing that I had to go through, coming home to lose my mom. It was just a slap in the face. It was like something else.

JASON:

She definitely had the mother instinct, the mama bear instinct. And she’d fight for her kids. That’s for damn sure. I mean, we’ve seen that firsthand. The two years he was gone. She got stuff done. She spoke her mind, but she was caring at the same time.

JOSH:

We ended up naming our daughter after her, Oakley Laurie Holt. She’s helped a lot.

BECKY:

The baby is about nine months old now. We checked in with Josh and Thamy again, almost exactly two years to the day after they got their freedom. But because of a global pandemic that interrupted our plans as we put this story together, we had to talk to them using Zoom. The COVID-19 outbreak also interrupted Thamy’s plans for a family reunion in Ecuador. She says they are adjusting to life as a family here, and Marian and Nathalia are very much looking forward to going back to school sometime soon. As to what’s next, when you compare it to the nightmare of El Helicoide, it sounds refreshingly ordinary. Thamy is going back to school, working to improve her English while getting a degree here in the US, similar to what she had in Venezuela. Josh is working on a book and occasionally doing some public speaking while working full time.

JOSH:

Our lives right now…we’re just enjoying life.

BECKY:

All of this started because Josh wanted to improve his Spanish. Thamy says it’s much better than it was when they first met in the Dominican Republic.

THAMY:

Much better now. Much better. He doesn’t have accent. He’s speaking like an American, no more.

JOSH:

Yeah. Well, it’s funny when we are talking in stores, and I’m talking to her, we’ll have people come up and start talking to us in Spanish, and they will go, “How long have you been talking Spanish?” And I’m like, “Just a couple years.” And they’re like, “Your accent’s amazing!”

THAMY:

Yeah. [laughs]

JOSH:

“You don’t even have one.” I just said, “Well, I hope not after what I’ve been through.” [Thamy and Josh laugh]

BECKY:

Thank you so much for listening to Hope in Darkness, I’m Becky Bruce. Additional producing and editing came from Nina Earnest. Sound mixing by Trent Sell. Our executive producer is Sheryl Worsley. Original theme composed by Michael Bahnmiller. Additional voice work provided by Rebecca Cressman and Alex Kirry. Special thanks to Josh and Thamy Holt and their family for sharing their experiences and story. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Hope Darkness Pod or online at hopedarkness.com and your feedback is always helpful. Drop us a rating or review wherever you listen. Hope in Darkness is a KSL podcast.

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